Liam: It sounds like you don’t think that the role of general counsel, or the law department, is restricted to a silo. How does the glass ceiling of being a general counsel look to you today? Or maybe how do you think it looks to most general counsel today, compared to how did you think it looked earlier in your career? And then what advice would you give then to other younger lawyers when they take that phone call from the headhunter that you took back in the day? Because you didn’t really know, “Oh, isn’t it gonna be a bit like what I do today, but in house?” I mean I’m oversimplifying.

Jared: That’s accurate. When I was approached with the job that’s exactly what I thought. I can keep doing the same thing. Do it for a company instead of doing it for a law firm being hired by a company. In my time at a law firm when I interacted with general counsels, there was a wide range – based on what I could see, a wide range of what those interactions looked like. And I saw general counsels that really did just focus on their silos. Their legal issues and others ran the company.

There were companies that we dealt with that didn’t have a general counsel because they’d made the decision that it wasn’t worth the money to bring that in house and they would outsource everything. And they didn’t have that legal expertise at the table when they were making decisions.

And there was one general counsel that I can remember distinctly that approached it differently. I could tell that he was very much engaged in the business of the company. The goals, the mission of the company, and not just solving the legal problems that happen to come up. He carried himself as though he was a C-suite executive making real decisions about what the future of his company. And that impressed me. I liked that. And I hadn’t really thought about that in terms that, “Hey, I wanna be like this guy someday.”

Looking back on it, I was attracted to the way that he approached his business. And so, when I started working for Dole and getting into that similar type of role, I used him as an example approaching it the same way and grew into the role I am now with that kind of mindset that I saw him take with his company.

Getting back to what advice I would give to younger lawyers that are just starting out, I think it would be just that. Don’t silo yourself. Don’t look at yourself as just needing to check a box and to provide the – review that contract and send it off and say, “Yeah. It looks good from a legal perspective.” Try to look at the contract from a holistic perspective. If all you’re doing is reviewing contracts, try to look at the contract for what is the business trying to accomplish. And if all the legal aspects of it all line-up, maybe there’s other things you can spot that businesspeople that asked you to review it might not have thought of.

When you do that, and when you approach whatever it is, whatever project it is you’re working on, then those businesspeople start to see you as a value add to their process and not just them being able to say that, “Yeah. I had legal look at this and it’s okay.” It’s, “Hey, we should get legal involved because they can help improve this from a business perspective, not just a legal perspective.”

Liam: I always assume it’s more fulfilling for the law department if they are actually involved in the business. Therefore, it’s really important that the general counsel models that behavior. Beyond modelling that behavior, how do you encourage the individuals in the department, including sometimes the individuals that don’t actually want to change, and the benefits of being more business-minded and business oriented, what are the kinds of things that you can do to help imbed that in the department?

Jared: Sure. I think the legal department generally has a unique position to be the moral compass of a company. It’s easy for a lawyer to answer the question, “Can we do it, yes or no?” And leave the, “Should we do it, yes or no,” to the businesspeople. But I try to answer both questions when I’m faced with a problem, the can and the should.

And I make sure that I empower the attorneys that work with me in the legal department to do the same thing, when we have either one-on-ones, or when we get together as a legal department. And we have lawyers spread throughout the world. When we get together as a legal department to help them see their roles as being a moral compass for the company, to answer that question, “Should we do it,” not just, “Can we do it?”

I also try to do the same thing with the leaders around the world of the company and the different divisions that these other lawyers directly service so they can see their lawyers in that same role. So that it’s not only the lawyers are trying to inject that into the business process, but the business leaders are turning to them for that advice to invite them to strategy meetings, to invite them to periodic business updates, even when they’re only talking about financial issues. I’ve encouraged them to have their lawyers sit in on those meetings so that they can understand what’s going on in the business. So that they can have a voice at the table.

Liam: I’ve never thought about the fact that if you don’t have someone like you that actually coaches the executives, if you work at a place where you’re not asked your point of view about something beyond your silo of expertise, then you don’t feel invited. That is an important role for a general counsel. And it’s not just you leading the team, it’s also you educating the customer of the business on the potential that your team has. Is there an aspect of business leadership in general that you didn’t get taught at law school?

Jared: To be honest with you, I can’t recall being taught much of anything with regard to business leadership at law school. I think that law school can teach that there are things that you learn that help in the business environment, being able to think on your feet, to be able to be a voice for your opinion, to argue a point, that ability to advocate for a position is very useful in the business context. With regard to being a voice at the table for the good of the company, for the should question versus the can question. If you can’t articulate that position well and think on your feet and be an advocate for what you’re trying to accomplish, having a seat at that table isn’t going to provide much of a benefit to anyone.

Liam: Lawyers are successful contributors to society. How much more could be achieved, could they contribute, if all of that capability, intellect, energy actually had something more multidisciplinary or something more – either at law school or earlier in the professional experience?

Jared: Very deep question. I think you’re right. That there are real areas where improvements could be made to help the law school experience produce better lawyers and produce better contributors to society. I think that the traditional law school experience has a tendency to produce people that are focused on winning. Winning the deal. Winning the argument. Winning whatever it is they’re facing.

In my experience, at least some law schools have seen that and are making real changes to address it by bringing in other disciplines in the University with which they’re affiliated to allow law students to take classes in other areas. Bring in professors for clinical work. Things like that should be more a part of a law school experience.

To your other point, I think that getting experience outside of law school is important as well. The friends that I had in law school, there was a big difference between those that came directly from undergrad and those people that had experience. And I was actually one of the ones that came straight from undergrad. And I was more interested, I should say, in those people that had experience outside of just school by the time they came to law school because they had more to offer. Because they had a different view on what the world was like. And I think that real improvement could be made.

There is a lot of talent going to law school these days. People see it as a path to lots of different things, whether it’s politics or lawyer making lots of money in a fancy office in New York. They see that as a clear path to get to that area. Whereas, if you just go to undergrad and then try to get a job somewhere, there’s so many jobs to choose from, so many paths to take, that it’s a lot harder to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Whereas going to law school you see the light at the end of the tunnel is, “I’m a lawyer doing law work.”

Liam: So, I’m not from the legal profession traditionally, and yet have operated inside the legal industry. And I’ve seen therefore there’s so much opportunity for people. And I’m lucky because I work with a lot of people who perhaps before they thought their career options were constrained or had a glass ceiling to it.

I believe we will see more CEOs that actually have legal training or legal background as more and more general counsel like you frankly step into that and it just becomes more business as usual as opposed to when the next CEO recruiting process is discussed around the board room, I’d like to think that there would be a pause and think about, “Okay. But what experience and contribution would we get? What leadership traits does this person have?”

I respect some of your time. Let me pivot over to just the last few things that I’d like to ask. I’m gonna ask you two questions. I’m gonna assume that you’re a reader because I just assume that lawyers read a lot. As you stepped increasingly into your role of managing people and managing a department, what was a book or some books that you’ve read that you think of as, “You know what? That book or those books really informed or inform how I operate as an executive.” Second question is leadership in tough times requires – dot-dot-dot?

Jared: Two good questions. So, the first thing that comes to mind when you ask about what books have informed my leadership, one of my favorite philosophers is Soren Kierkegaard. And I loved his thinking approach to life topics that he covered. And one set of essays comes to mind where he’s looking at an issue and he takes that issue and writes approaches to it from four distinct viewpoints. And he does it very intentionally to show how one event can be seen in completely different ways by different people depending on what your viewpoint is.

And understanding that truth that people see the world very differently has been a big benefit to me in my career, especially when whether it’s sitting across the table from another company that we’re trying to do a deal with. Or sitting in a board meeting where we’re trying to solve a problem. Or sitting in a management meeting where we’re trying to solve a problem or deciding which path to move forward on.

Understanding that the people around that table are all seeing the same thing in a very different way. Stepping back a little bit when you’re in the middle of that conversation and thinking about, “How is she looking at it? How is he looking at it? Why is she seeing it this way,” versus, “Why is he seeing it that way?” I found that doing that, taking that simple action, has, at times, allowed me to bridge gaps that are there when people I can see clearly that people are just talking past each other. I’ll then interject into the conversation and say, “No. Look. Let’s focus on what we’re trying to solve.” And phrase the question in such a way that we can all be on the same page and address it collaboratively.

I think that’s been a great benefit to me. And I think that Kierkegaard’s writings, that specific writing – and unfortunately I can’t tell you the name of the essay off the top of my head because it’s been a while since I’ve read it, but that stuck with me as a big benefit to how to interact with people and how to bring collaboration to a situation.

Liam: That’s definitely the deepest answer that I’ve heard. The thing that if I would paraphrase that, when I think about the principles that we use in our companies, we talk about focusing on the situation or the behavior, not the person. And it’s not quite the same, but there is something in there about your point which is that the same data set, the same fact pattern, can be seen differently. And it’s quite easy to personalize it. And we get away from the fact pattern.

And when I feel myself falling into that dispute, the difference between someone – and you can almost feel that kinda welling up inside you. “I’m disagreeing with you. I’m not entering into conflict with you.” It actually doesn’t matter what the topic was that kinda got us into that emotional zone. That’s something that sounds like I should read. My colleagues that will listen to this will be like, “Liam, you need to read some Kierkegaard.”

The last question. Leadership in tough times requires – dot-dot-dot?

Jared: I think leadership in tough times, I think it requires flexibility. I think it requires creativity. Being willing to do things differently. If you’re in the middle of a tough time, it’s most likely the business as usual isn’t gonna work. The approach to those times has to change as well. So, that’s where that flexibility and creativity I think come into play. You’ve gotta be willing to break out of, “Well, this is how we’ve always done it. This is how we’ve always approached it.” You’ve gotta be flexible to break out of that and you’ve gotta be creative to think of new ways to approach that issue.

Liam: Jared, thank you. I mean it’s a fascinating conversation. The most philosophical conversation I think I’ve had. And I really appreciate you contributing your thoughts about leadership and law. So, thank you.

Jared: I’ve enjoyed the conversation. I appreciate it, Liam. It’s been a pleasure.

About the Author(s)

Jared Gale is a Vice President, General Counsel, and Corporate Secretary of the Dole Food Company. This interview was conducted by Liam Brown, Chairman, and CEO of Elevate.